Mud flood in the 19th century
Incredible. Is that a picture of the ark above the mountain? Strange shape. It looks like one of these:
Amazing. More fuel to the fire. I love it when historical accounts back up the maps and what I am seeing.
Possibly.
Lol. Again, more documentary accounts of land appearing out of nowhere. This is nearly unheard of today I think. I know I posted that smallish island appearing off Pakistan, but imagine whole continents appearing. Imagine if Tasmania suddenly became a peninsula again and not an island. It would make world-breaking news for a long time.
Very strange. "God" had technology that's for sure. Interesting that he says it wasn't men knowing good and evil from eating the fruit, just that they weren't supposed to eat that fruit in the first place. It really should be called the tree of disobedience.
Yeah, not that only medieval book to mention these animals. Munster comes to mind. His book is 1544 I think.
Why didn't god want "Adam and Eve" living forever?
Scythia has 44 people as well in the above quote. Is Scythia India? Where are these fig trees now?
Yeah. That's how myths develop. A name with obscure meaning for a profane yet very important event and 1000 years later everyone thinks of it as if there's something non-earthly and mystical.
Did the 'gods' bring certain chemicals with them in this realm when they started cultivating it, to make them live longer in this harsh atmosphere, especially after the deluge? Maybe they had them in the form of plants (or something that made humans associated it with them), but made sure humans didn't get access to it.
It doesn't appear to be the case, even though they are both in Asia. But there seems to be another mistake, namely the confusion with the Hyrcanian and Hercynian Forest. According to the map, the bird with the glowing feathers lives in the Hyrcanian Forest. According to the Bestiary it lives in the Hercynian forest.
I haven't seen another image of the ark which looks like this, but it looks like a rescue boat.
As far as I know the ark is only shown on Christian mappa mundis.
@WH Have you looked into the Tabula Rogeriana? I'm not good with comparing maps, but I've read on wikipedia that the it was the authoritative map of the early middle ages - it was created in 1154 by an Arab geographer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana
I don't see any Christian references, I wonder if there are any.
Historians say the Mappa mundi are not showing the middle ages, but only what people in the middle ages thought antiquity looked like. It is said the Hereford map for example is made from a couple of different antique sources, as described here in chart 1. here in chart 1.
Then there's the Christian 1450 Fra Mauro Map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fra_Mauro_map, which has extremely detailed texts. Unfortunately I can't find any freely available translation
I think the detailed texts on this map would provide us with everything that changed during that time in regards to the Christian world view and other things, as it was the same tradition mapping the changes. (update: I found a PDF that apparently contains all translated inscriptions of the map)
Fra Mauro discussed the issue of Jerusalem at the south pole, saying it is not accurate: http://cartographic-images.net/Cartogra ... mundi.html. He discusses other topics and apparently lots of things didn't make sense in 1450 that made sense a few centuries earlier. For example he can't find any evidence for the Gog and Magog people referenced in the Mappa Mundis. The cartographic-images.net site seems to be a good place for in depth discussion of early maps.
" Seven-headed serpents roam the province of Malabar in India, troglodytes run wild in East Africa, and the Barents Sea near Norway harbors fish that can “puncture the ships with a spike they have on their backs”.
More exotic treasures include a lake on an island in the Indian Ocean that can turn iron into gold. In the accompanying annotation, Fra Mauro hastily explained that he didn’t believe a word of this story, and included it “just to do justice to the testimony of many people.” Given that he repeated this particular tale in three different places and drew a spectacular gold lake in the middle of the Andaman Islands for good measure, his skepticism seems ambiguous to say the least. [...] Fra Mauro gives no credence to the wild tales of “human and animal monsters,” noting that none of the travelers with whom he spoke could confirm the stories. “I leave research in the matter,” he concluded sarcastically, “to those who are curious about such things.”" - https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/fra-mauro-map
In general, it seems this 1450 map was the first time that the antique Ptolemaic sources were no longer reflecting reality, hinting to a earth change in that time possibly..? On the other hand, eye witnesses were still talking about some absurd things.
To quote him: "Jerusalem is indeed the center of the inhabited world latitudinally, though longitudinally it is somewhat to the west, but since the western portion is more thickly populated by reason of Europe, therefore Jerusalem is also the center longitudinally if we regard not empty space but the density of population."
Apparently modern geographers are puzzled especially by all the African cities on the 1450 map that are missing nowadays: https://popular-archaeology.com/article ... -ethiopia/
Surprisingly I think the ark is still there in the 1450 Fra Mauro map:
Update: Wow, there is indeed a bible reference in the 1154 Arabic map. I found a reference to the Gog and Magog story. It is on the top right:
Even up to 1436 and 1457 the world maps are depicted in the medieval and antique tradition but Jerusalem is no longer the center of the map:
"The maps mentioned above are ones that began to assimilate the new discoveries into the Ptolemaic framework, thereby abandoning the form and format of the earlier maps. Since the traditional frame no longer held the new discoveries in the 15th century it became a practical impossibility to center the maps on Jerusalem."
Paradise: The place called paradise disappeared in the 15th Century. The last map that shows the paradise is the 1436 Bianco World Map. The Genose Map of 1457 and the Fra Mauro map of 1450 both mention that no one can find it, neither in South-Eastern Africa nor beyond India. Even though the 1450 Fra Mauro map was created partially by the same guy that put the paradise into the Bianco World map, paradise is now omitted.
It also looks like Paradise is what is nowadays Sri Lanka in the Cotton Map of 1000 AD although that's hard to tell because the proportions on the maps don't make any sense nowadays compared to 700 years ago. Some maps don't depict Paradise as a peninsula though, though it seems to be in eastern/southern India.
This supposed 7th Century map is the earliest map that shows the paradise and Gog and Magog area, but no Ark. If anything, it shows tells us that they were already part of the earth before the Caspian Sea got closed towards the Northern Sea.
Paradise Scam: Apparently there was a guy in Central Asia who ran a Paradise Scam, according to the Fra Mauro Map which cites Marco Polo:
In ancient days here ruled a lord known as The Old Man of the Mountain, who through his cunning had created a place full of every delight and pleasure. Here he brought men and fooled them into thinking it was paradise. Out of devotion to this lord, these men then committed great robbery and murder, which was the reason why a Tartar lord seized control of this place
I like the spirit of these Tartar Lords.
Enclosed Area: This seems to be lost somewhere between 1450 and 1504.
Fra Mauro writes about the enclosed people:
"Some write that on the slopes of Mount Caspian, or not far from there, live those peoples who, as one reads, were shut in by Alexander the Macedonian. But this opinion is certainly and clearly mistaken and cannot be upheld in any way because the diversity of the peoples who live around that mountain would certainly have been noticed; it is not possible that such a large number of peoples should remain unknown given that these regions are fairly well known to us: they have been frequented not only by our own peoples but also by the likes of the Georgians, the Mingrelians, the Armenians, the Circassians, the Tartars and many other populations that continually travel along this route. Hence, if those peoples had been enclosed there, I think that others would have had notice of it, and the fact would be known to us. But given that those peoples are at the limit of the earth - something of which I have information that is certain - this explains why all the peoples I listed above know no more about them than we do. Hence I conclude that these peoples are very far from Mount Caspian and are, as I said, at the extreme limit of the world, between the north-east and the north, and they are enclosed by craggy mountains and ocean on three sides. "
The area is still included in the Genoese Map of 1457.
Waldseemueller map:
I can't find Gog and Magog specifically in the 1504 Waldseemüller Map, but one area has an artificial looking mountain area in the same area, so the area still exists, but I don't see a direct reference to the enclosure. It is way bigger than in the Fra Mauro map. Scythia is still there. Basically everything is still there that we know from antiquity. The Hpyerborean Mountains are in modern day Russia. Babylon is there. Tartaria.
Waldseemueller himself writes about Scythia part:
The part of Asia called Asia Minor we have surrounded with a saffron-colored cross joined to a branding iron, which is the symbol of the Sultans of the Turks, who rules Scythia this side of the Imaus, the highest mountains of Asia and Sarmatian Scythia. Asiatic Scythia we have marked by anchors, which are the emblems of the great Tartar Khan.
Roman Empire
Also Waldseemueller still talks about the Roman Empire in 1507, even though technically it had been the 'Holy Roman Empire' since 900 AD according to the official timeline. The mappa mundi maps reference the Roman Empire in 1000-1400 as if it still exists.
Asia getting bigger
There is a discussion about South America as an Asian peninsula and why Columbus thought he reach India traveling to the west here, though it is way over my head, but according to this analysis the 1500 maps show South-America as belonging to the Asian continent?
Comparing the Genoese map of 1457 (high resolution) and the Waldseemueller map of 1504, it seems a new part of Asia just emerged out of nowhere:
The circle shows the Gog and Magog area in Scythia. This is obvious because both maps show the big square walls/mountain walls that show the open air prison where the Gog and Magog people are separated from the rest of the world and similar inscriptions ("Scythia beyond Mount Ymaus"). Waldseemueller himself comments that the region in the north-east called Chatay (China) has to be newly added, because it wasn't known before.
This 1548 map shows America and Asia as one continent. The Ortelius World Map of 1570 doesn't anymore, but the Oceans appear to be small.
Enclosed Area
More about the Gog andd Magog area in the Genose map:
From this people, that is from the tribe of Dan, Antichrist or [...] will be born, who, opening up these mountains by means of nefarious arts [...] will come to the mountain chain that encloses them”
“Up to here live the ten enclosed tribes of the Hebrew race.”
“The iron gates where Alexander enclosed the Tartars”
I also have the feeling this whole enclosing episode was the start of the defamation against Tartars in the European Middle Ages, which is reflected by images like this one. While these "Mongols" (or Tartars) are portrayed as extremely primitive, violent and aggressive, others say this view was the result of Church propaganda against a highly developed and peaceful civilization in Asia that did not accept the Christian Order. Did this civlization later moved eastwards when the earth changes made them allow it? Was this the reason North America was "terra incognita" for such a long time after Columbus? Is this peaceful civilization the reason the North of Russia/Asia/Canada is so uninhabitable today and full of holes that look like craters? I wouldn't be surprised if the wall was actually a defensive wall, not an enclosure, and the maps are twisted in this regard. Well, all of this is just speculation of course.
I can't find that area in today's Russia/Asia, but in the North-Eastern part there is a mountain area that resembles a square area(zoom out), and it is indeed enclosed by oceans on three sides, as Fra Mauro put it. There is another one in the Yugyd Va National Park area, which could also be remains from a wall that went south through Asia. But it's almost impossible to make out anything. Everything from back then seems to be destroyed.
Not only does the Waldseemueller show the remnants of this open air prison enclosed by Alexander The Great, but also the previously mapped coast lines of Asia just disappear and the area of Asia is more than doubled in size. So apparently half of 1500 Asia just appeared out of nowhere in the 16th century but later disappears and gets re-added to America. How does that make sense?
Was America indeed a part of "India" (Asia) when Columbus voyaged to America? Did a split just occure at a later point somewhere between 1500 and 1570? Is the Waldseemueller map mistakenly showing two continents, because some people were just assuming it to be separated and started exploring the same continent from two separate sides?
Gog/Magog = Eastern Tartarians
I found an article that follows the Gog/Magog myths well into the 17th Century. They even appear on a map in 1701.
As it turns out, the Mongols/Khans/Eastern Tartarians bordering China to the north really are Gog and Magog!
The 1569 Mercator world Map cites Marco Polo with "Mongul which we call Magog", on later maps it is simply "Tartari provincia" in the same area. The area can be found in the extreme north-east of Asia on the Mercator Map.
A medieval map simply states ''the Tartars Gog and Magog'.
Marco Polo writes: "It is the place which we call in our country Gogo and Magog, but they call it Ung and Mungul, and in each province
there was one people, in Ung were the people of Gog and in Mungul lived the Tartars."
What about all the Christian hate towards the Eastern Tartarians?
Strangely enough the area of Gog/Magog is slowly going from the middle of Asia towards the North-East over a couple of hundred years. Historians thus think they were simply a myth, put in unknown places, and as the the world got known more and more, they were just put to the most far eastern place and vanished at some point. It may have been a myth in itself, but I think it was Christian propaganda against a real civilization that was not very fond of accepting the Church Rule.
Dating of the ancient maps
It's strange that there is a hotspot of medieval maps between 1100 and 1400, but almost nothing before that. Also note that there are no originals left, only copies. Most copies appear to be from 1300-1600. There is a very long time between the maps of antiquity and early middle ages with no map activity at all. The time span of this void is exactly 1000 years if you exclude three dubious 'antique' maps that suddenly appear in the middle ages as copies.
I'm no longer sure the Bible is really around 2000 years old, it looks more like it includes a couple of events that happened about 1000 years later and I have the suspicion a couple of early world maps between the year 0 and 1000 are not correctly dated.
For example the Tabula Peutingeriana is said to date from the 4th Century, but it only first appeared as a 13th Century copy, and was only published in 1508. But if we take it as a Roman map, where are all the biblical references? Babylon is there, but no tower.
It doesn't make much sense either that all of these medieval mappa mundis quote a guy (Ptolemy) that supposedly lived 1150 years earlier. So no one came up with a better system of mapping the world for more than 1100 years and instead everyone just quote some dead guy from an eternity ago?
Isn't it strange that Ptolemy was the only catographer that drew the Caspian Sea in the style of the Middle Age Maps? Everyone else during that time showed the Caspian Sea connected to the Scythian/Northern Ocean. He diverges from that:
I am pretty sure this is proof that Ptolemy was an early medieval Catographer. There's also the problem that there are hundreds of people named Ptolemy back then.
I mean, the oldest surviving Ptolemaic world map from the year 150 was "redrawn" by monks at Constantinople under Maximus Planudes in 1300, and then again reconstituted again in the 15h Century. Really? Please try harder, monks! The upheavals between 1500 and 1700 in Africa, Europe and Russia have destroyed most of the original ancient knowledge in my view. We are collecting broken fragments.
Why should they have the ark at Mount Ararat in 1450 when all of this supposedely happened 2000 or 2500 years earlier? What about this strange Gog and Magog stuff? The paradise that disappeared around 1436. No, I think the events that led to the Bible happened between 1000 and 2000 years ago and then 1000 years ago they had finished collected all the important stuff in writings. Then the church was created between 1000 and 1300 and started to push a censored version of this knowledge. They started to became more powerful around 1400, overthrew the Roman Empire from within, and started to prosecute the people that didn't want to believe in the official bible in Europe and Russia. At the same time they voyaged to the new continents and spread their version of history elswere. Eveything after terrible catastrophes destroyed the foundation of the older world. This culminated in the events of 1500-1650 with the Witch Hunts, prosecution of so-called Heretics, etc.
Imagine how much happens within a mere 100 years. Think about 1900 and think about now. Then look back and think how much can happen between ca AD 900/1000 (end of bible stuff) and 1400 (late mappa mundi maps). 300-400 years are enough to make the ark and the paradise disappear, and also all memories. 1400 years on the other hand are too much for people to still care.
This is the Sawley Mappa Mundi from 1190. It has the tower of Babel, paradise, open air prison, sea monsters, etc. The earlierst one is the Cotton map from 995-1050. It looks to me as if only around 1000 AD people started mapping the biblical world. I don't necessarily think the flood happened somewhere shortly before this, but how long can a boat rest on a mountain?
links
- After the (artificial?) design of the earth, the fresh version looked something like this, and on each continent different races were placed, only that it is obvious when looking at the later maps that every continent had exactly the same size. When you put this original design into the modell of an earth globe you get three identical parts and two small oceans at the poles. The picture reminds me of a flower with three leaves, and this metaphor has been used in the middle ages. The growth pattern of the earth flower seems a bit chaotic though
The people back then chose to view everything from the south pole, because that's apparently where the modern day civilization was born. Since we are living in a closed system, our ancestors/creators must have come out of the earth.
- Then between -600 (?) and 1000 (?) it underwent a couple of changes, which are impossible to date, but they created the Med Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, etc.:
What is the Read Sea today, was the Nile originally (?).
I think the oldest reliably dated map is the Cotton Map of ca 1000 AD, the Caspian Sea is still at the top North, and open. In the Ebstorf Map (1235), the Caspian Sea is also still open, and Jerusalem at the center.
It seems the Christian Monks took a while to accept the new world., because this is no longer the case in 1154 (Tabula Rogeriana), the Caspian Sea is now more in the middle of Asia. Either they were in denial mode, or it shows the datings are not really reliable.
The place of modern day Caspian Sea is strange, it basically went from top north to middle of the earth. How can that happen??
By most of the following maps until 1459 (Fra Mauro Map) it is confirmed that the Caspian Sea is no longer open to the Ocean, and Jerusalem is also no longer at the south pole.
And that's shortly before the biggest change yet that creates America and the modern day Oceans between 1460 and 1500. This destroys the biblical world, but a few monsters are still there. South America is still part of Asia for a couple of decades in the 16th Century. The arctis and antarctis didn't exist yet. Northern Asia is mostly unexplored for a couple of decades until 1600, strangely. Just like the Interior of Africa, and America. Hard to tell if they just couldn't get there in time or it was depopulated. Africa is still a bit empty in 1570, still more life signs like seas and lakes than today.
The modern day antarctis and arctis appear after the split of South America in the 16th Century, but they aren't full of ice. The South pole is terra australis - unknown land, but the area is mapped without the ice.
The Amazonian tribes of antiquity are in Northern Asia during the Middle Ages, then they are in South America suddenly after 1500, and the Amazon river is named after them.
Then there's another change which creates Australia between 1630 and 1680, right? Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean.
"Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean." Thats one of my questions, also, where did most of the tribes of South America came from? if both Americas came out of the ocean. According to most of the maps that WH posted, it seems that both Argentinian and Chilean Patagonia came out of a big chunk of land of Antartica, if not whole South America.
Also, what is in Antartica? it seems that most of the World superpowers want a piece of that land. Is there a chance that the exit of this concave world is placed in there?
Freezetime26 wrote:Then there's another change which creates Australia between 1630 and 1680, right? Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean.
"Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean." Thats one of my questions, also, where did most of the tribes of South America came from? if both Americas came out of the ocean. According to most of the maps that WH posted, it seems that both Argentinian and Chilean Patagonia came out of a big chunk of land of Antartica, if not whole South America.
Also, what is in Antartica? it seems that most of the World superpowers want a piece of that land. Is there a chance that the exit of this concave world is placed in there?[/quote]
Yeah. That's a tough one. One of the maps dreamtime showed it looks like a lot of the Americas where a part of Asia/Antarctica at one time. On one of the Ptolemy maps, it looks like South America was a part of Africa.
Definitely tricky. I have seen a couple of maps from the early 1500s to show North America joined to Asia in a significant way. If I had to guess right now, I'd say originally (Ptolemy) North America was part of Asia and South America was part of Africa, both SA/Africa were joined to Antarctica. Then, South America broke off from Africa and joined Asia/North America. And then after that, the Pacific opened up seperating the Americas from Asia.
Does that make sense? Look, it's very early days with that theory lol. But I thought I'd put it out there.
I'll keep on concentrating on maps post-1550 for the moment. Dreamtime and cepho have contributed enormously to historical texts which I have yet to read through properly.
dreamtime wrote:The leader of the 1300 Mongol/Tartary Empire Kublai Khan definitely comes across as very aggressive, from Marco Polo's account. He's basically conquering everything, all the time.
Yeah, books like that are real eye openers and should be taken as true at least from the perspective of the author.
Didn't trade happen over land in those days along the Silk Road? This in itself is a little odd if this was the main trade route as surely it would be easier and cheaper to send cargo by boat than land? A boat could carry more goods quicker than a horse and cart I think.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Tartars were the real driving force behind aggressive Islam with the Turks as the Western European frontline of the Tartars expanding into Europe (aka the Crusades etc.)
When you go through the early maps on wikipedia, it seems there a couple of decades after 1470 where America suddenly had emerged out of the ocean as a new part of Asia (look at Martellus and Pietro Coppo), and then somewhat after 1520 it starts to be a seperate continent.
Yes, the one Ptolemy map where Africa is bigger as usual. hmm...
Anyway, it is very strange to me that all the early maps show a world without any American continent, and then it simply appear out of nowhere added to Asia.
But America had to be somewhere before, because it is part of the original "Pangea" super continent when there were no oceans. The rich history of the continent makes it very unlikely to me it just came out of the ocean 500 years ago. But I can't understand what happened from all of the maps known to us. Looking at the map from my previous post it is almost impossible people did not know about that big american continent that was basically just in front of their eyes in East Asia.
Maybe some part of the problem is all the different systems of maps and projections used over time.
The mercator projection is a big problem because it has distorted how modern people look at the world: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-bri ... world-map/
Here's another projection that makes more sense: https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 6d1ff9e682
It's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall%E2%8 ... projection
As depicted in this Show "The West Wing": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY
dreamtime wrote:
But America had to be somewhere before, because it is part of the original "Pangea" super continent when there were no oceans. The rich history of the continent makes it very unlikely to me it just came out of the ocean 500 years ago. But I can't understand what happened from all of the maps known to us. Looking at the map from my previous post it is almost impossible people did not know about that big american continent that was basically just in front of their eyes in East Asia.
I'm guessing that some or most of north America was a part of Asia and classed as such in the old maps, i.e. it was a part of Tartary. One map mentions tents in North America in the 1500s the same as those of Tartary plus white figures drawn on as Indians.
Perhaps some of it came out of the narrow Atlantic ocean as the Atlantic Ocean expanded and the first narrow part of the Pacific was created. So new land was created in the middle of the Atlantic expanding it, and part of North America came out of the west side of it also.
I'm just guessing at the moment as I haven't looked into this in any detail.
variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 10px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 10px 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 831.2px;"> "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
by Wild Heretic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:35 pm
That's not a problem dreamtime. You can overcome this by either referring the modern map as the same projection as Mercator:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ion_SW.JPG
Or, which I much prefer, is taking the lat/long coordinates from both maps you are comparing to get an idea as to what and where you are looking at. You have to be careful that 0 degrees longitude is only Greenwich, London in maps from 1800AD onwards and British maps from 1700AD onwards. The others usually use the Azores as their starting point (but not always).
dreamtime wrote:interesting: http://www.sms-tsunami-warning.com/page ... tugal-1755
Megaquake near Portugal in 1755.
I am looking at this map again in detail: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... =0&trs=95#
Cited on Page 4 of this thread.
There's a book that writes about a couple of cities in Africa that have been wiped from history: https://archive.org/details/historyanddescr00leogoog. Haven't looked into it.
Are there any similar high quality maps from that time? The details in Africa are astounding. Maybe it would be good to collect such maps in a chronological list.
Dreamtime, have no fear, I've been cataloguing all these maps over the last few months. Well, I didn't do that for Africa, although I collected a lot of them in a folder on my laptop.
I have two excel files of about 150 to 200 maps from circa 1550 to 1800 on South America/Antarctica and Russia/North America/Japan/Bering Strait.
I don't think I'll need an African one. My plan is put these areas together in regions and time periods with technical analysis compared to google maps and referencing historical texts that I have found with current archeology. The PDFs will probably look something like this:
1. North America/Russia and Australia
2. China/Japan and Tartary
3. South America/Antarctica
4. Africa
5. Rome
6. Ireland and West coast of Scotland
North America is first because there are still substantial differences as late as 1790AD. It's very hard to dismiss Captains Cook and Bering and the official maps of their voyages. This makes sense to me as the Pacific seems to be the last ocean created and continued to change (and expand a little) right up to this time.
I have nearly finished this datasheet. I think I'll prob go up to 1800AD or whenever I actually get a modern-looking map.
The African travellers book from the early 1500s is a classic. I have to data mine it properly. I read a lot of it. He hardly ever mentions ruins. I think he mentions ruins like 3 or 4 times. All the other "ruin" words come from the modern literature analyst below the text who keeps saying things like "this city is now in ruins" etc. or he isn't exactly sure where this city is lol.
The beauty of that link is that you can word search. He uses "temple" a lot rather than "church" for example. I don't think I ever saw the word "mosque".
There are loads of detailed maps on Africa even better than that 1587 Venetian one.
The Maunder Minimum corresponds well with the historical world maps in regard to the creation of the ice poles, the global cooling as well as the global catastrophe in 1690 theorized in other parts of this thread.
In 1816, exactly at the lowest point of the Dalton Minimum there was the "Year Without a Summer" with global famines.
We are headed towards a new grand minimum starting in the year 2030: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 092955.htm
Something big happened in 1600:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_f ... ite_note-1
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaynaputina
1/3 of Russian people killed by a single volcano in Peru? There's pobably more to it.
Was this the beginning of the global cooling? dreamtime wrote:Africa fascinates me, because of the obvious contrast between past and modern. It's also a good example to show to others.
Yeah Ethiopia and below is depicted as white person's land. Central and West Africa is black (negro) person's territory. People either lived in tents or citadels at that time it seems.
I have one back up.
Some of it.
Brilliant finds, especially on the second map. You are dead right. Comparing that map to google maps, South America belonged to Asia and was called India (as were other places I noticed in that region on other maps. I think India was a loose name meaning far land or something like that). North/central America looks to be the Cathay of old.
An absolutely incredible map on so many levels. At least I have half a chance at understanding old German if the text is legible at all. That map is most worthy of intricate study at some time.
Incredible isn't it that the entire Pacific Ocean and the ring of fire are less than 600 years old! Imagine even going from that map to the Mercator one in the 1500s. What a transition! What a mess!
The Maunder Minimum corresponds well with the historical world maps in regard to the creation of the ice poles, the global cooling as well as the global catastrophe in 1690 theorized in other parts of this thread.
In 1816, exactly at the lowest point of the Dalton Minimum there was the "Year Without a Summer" with global famines.
We are headed towards a new grand minimum starting in the year 2030: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 092955.htm
Something big happened in 1600:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_f ... ite_note-1
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaynaputina
1/3 of Russian people killed by a single volcano in Peru? There's pobably more to it.
Was this the beginning of the global cooling?
Yes, I've pointed this out on the thread earlier. There were even bigger earth changes before the 1600s, but sunspots were only first recorded then so who knows how the sun acted before 1600. Ice core samples are bunk as the old maps don't show ice (but populated areas) in the regions where they take these samples today (Antarctica; although some Greenland samples may be ok for a short period before 1600AD judging by the maps).
Yeah the 1600 eruption in Peru (or thereabouts) has been linked to the northern European famine of the same time; however, I read an excellent blog article on this topic. The blogger had researched this thoroughly and showed that although there seems to be a link, the eruption can't be the single or actual cause of the famine events in Scandinavia and Russia at the time. He had no idea as to what really caused all of this but suggested another massive eruption in northern Europe missing from the historical record.
http://www.volcanocafe.org/the-winter-of-huaynaputina/
You can't go far wrong if you invert everything the mainstream tells us. When they say its global warming, you can bet your house it will be global cooling. Invert everything they say and you are golden without having to research anything yourself. A handy and quick barometer to have, if you don't have the time to research something right.
Thank you NWO. You are the lazy man's barometer of truth for the intelligent person.
I think it's a good overview how the mainstream looks at these maps and interprets them in a more or less coherent way to fit into their narrative.
Let me just say the antique connection they want to draw in the wikipedia article is not very convincing. I think I saw most of the very old maps and I haven't seen Antarctica or anything that resembles it. Showing this map as proof is not convincing. (Australis just means 'southern', and would be expected on the, well, south pole.)
What's with this strange idea to connect "absurd" medival theories to the old antiquity? It's either medieval or from antiquity. This kind of logic is everywhere. I have to say it seems more and more like historians see the complete middle ages as a sudden collective delusion, a chaotic dream of ancient antiquity.
I also think the 'antique authors' all lived around the second millinium (around 1000 AD +-200). That's why map makers reference Ptolemeus even at the beginning of modernity. They were put back 1000 years into the past together with the Western Roman Empire.
As a more general thought: In the light of reversing population growth and natural growth patterns I see only two options, either humanity was invented a thousand years ago (unlikely, given it's obsession with obscure historic myths and jumpstart from nothing) or our civilization was almost wiped out at that time. So the deluge happened just a thousand years ago? To me this is the only conclusion I see so far. Even though it's hard to get my head around it.
Did we do this to ourselves with technology? Like "Hey, let's see what this interesting source of infinite energy ca... -- oops we destroyed the glass layer"
Amazingly, I pretty much agree on everything there Dreamtime. I was thinking about the population reversal the other day and I know a historian or two who thinks that half the population of China was wiped in the 1600s and the mainstream estimate a third of the world pop was wiped during the same period.
However, let's say half the population was killed off worldwide. Ok. Now, the same maths site (Wolfram) says that at the current 1.1% growth rate, the world pop doubles every 64 years I think it was. So at 2% growth, this will be around 40 years. This is nothing really. We can just add say half a century to the 1136 years figure. Let's say half the world's population died every century from 1000AD to 1700AD due to earth expansion, climate change, famine and wars etc. (This is an extreme figure). We are only adding 350 years to the 1136 calculation.
This means that the original "birth of humanity" still stands at around 1100 to 1500 years ago. We can't really get around it. Therefore I put a literal "restart" and new beginning at around this time. Also, the 1136 figure is going back to one man! Clearly looking at the different races and locations this is too extreme. Year zero may be starting at 10,000 people altogether say (maybe).
Was the deluge then? Maybe. I know the Aztec text you showed and the Bible point to around 4500 years ago I think, so maybe this was another restart. I am unsure. Or they could all be referring to the near extinction deluge at 1000 years ago.
It is possible that high tech broke the earth I suppose. Maybe those pyramids all over the world had something to do with it. Too much energy collection broke the earth and glass open? Or maybe it was the creator who thought enough is enough with the people messing with the genome creating Griffins, sphinxes and centaurs and such like, playing God. Or the giants eating everything they could see. It looks like according to the bible there was a committee disagreement as to how the earth should be run and for what purpose, hence the falllen angels and the like, which is still ongoing. Fallen angels said yes man should be like God, and God said no way, that's not why I created them... or something to that effect.
All speculation though for me at present.
Whenever I see the Wiseup petrified technology I always think Flash Gordon, Planet of the Apes, and He-man Masters of the Universe cartoon. Reminds me of the late Lloyd Pye as well when he says that humans aren't made for current earth conditions (hence his speculation that we are really ET created). It had never occurred to me until now that these conditions we enjoy to today are only 200 to possibly 300 years old. And that in 1300AD conditions were very different. So maybe pre-800/900 AD earth conditions were very suitable to humans? Ideal even. Or the most ideal condition was the garden of Eden at the north pole.
Amazing. More fuel to the fire. I love it when historical accounts back up the maps and what I am seeing.
Possibly.
Lol. Again, more documentary accounts of land appearing out of nowhere. This is nearly unheard of today I think. I know I posted that smallish island appearing off Pakistan, but imagine whole continents appearing. Imagine if Tasmania suddenly became a peninsula again and not an island. It would make world-breaking news for a long time.
Very strange. "God" had technology that's for sure. Interesting that he says it wasn't men knowing good and evil from eating the fruit, just that they weren't supposed to eat that fruit in the first place. It really should be called the tree of disobedience.
Yeah, not that only medieval book to mention these animals. Munster comes to mind. His book is 1544 I think.
Why didn't god want "Adam and Eve" living forever?
Scythia has 44 people as well in the above quote. Is Scythia India? Where are these fig trees now?
Yeah. That's how myths develop. A name with obscure meaning for a profane yet very important event and 1000 years later everyone thinks of it as if there's something non-earthly and mystical.
Did the 'gods' bring certain chemicals with them in this realm when they started cultivating it, to make them live longer in this harsh atmosphere, especially after the deluge? Maybe they had them in the form of plants (or something that made humans associated it with them), but made sure humans didn't get access to it.
It doesn't appear to be the case, even though they are both in Asia. But there seems to be another mistake, namely the confusion with the Hyrcanian and Hercynian Forest. According to the map, the bird with the glowing feathers lives in the Hyrcanian Forest. According to the Bestiary it lives in the Hercynian forest.
I haven't seen another image of the ark which looks like this, but it looks like a rescue boat.
As far as I know the ark is only shown on Christian mappa mundis.
@WH Have you looked into the Tabula Rogeriana? I'm not good with comparing maps, but I've read on wikipedia that the it was the authoritative map of the early middle ages - it was created in 1154 by an Arab geographer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana
I don't see any Christian references, I wonder if there are any.
Historians say the Mappa mundi are not showing the middle ages, but only what people in the middle ages thought antiquity looked like. It is said the Hereford map for example is made from a couple of different antique sources, as described here in chart 1. here in chart 1.
Then there's the Christian 1450 Fra Mauro Map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fra_Mauro_map, which has extremely detailed texts. Unfortunately I can't find any freely available translation
I think the detailed texts on this map would provide us with everything that changed during that time in regards to the Christian world view and other things, as it was the same tradition mapping the changes. (update: I found a PDF that apparently contains all translated inscriptions of the map)Fra Mauro discussed the issue of Jerusalem at the south pole, saying it is not accurate: http://cartographic-images.net/Cartogra ... mundi.html. He discusses other topics and apparently lots of things didn't make sense in 1450 that made sense a few centuries earlier. For example he can't find any evidence for the Gog and Magog people referenced in the Mappa Mundis. The cartographic-images.net site seems to be a good place for in depth discussion of early maps.
" Seven-headed serpents roam the province of Malabar in India, troglodytes run wild in East Africa, and the Barents Sea near Norway harbors fish that can “puncture the ships with a spike they have on their backs”.
More exotic treasures include a lake on an island in the Indian Ocean that can turn iron into gold. In the accompanying annotation, Fra Mauro hastily explained that he didn’t believe a word of this story, and included it “just to do justice to the testimony of many people.” Given that he repeated this particular tale in three different places and drew a spectacular gold lake in the middle of the Andaman Islands for good measure, his skepticism seems ambiguous to say the least. [...] Fra Mauro gives no credence to the wild tales of “human and animal monsters,” noting that none of the travelers with whom he spoke could confirm the stories. “I leave research in the matter,” he concluded sarcastically, “to those who are curious about such things.”" - https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/fra-mauro-map
In general, it seems this 1450 map was the first time that the antique Ptolemaic sources were no longer reflecting reality, hinting to a earth change in that time possibly..? On the other hand, eye witnesses were still talking about some absurd things.
To quote him: "Jerusalem is indeed the center of the inhabited world latitudinally, though longitudinally it is somewhat to the west, but since the western portion is more thickly populated by reason of Europe, therefore Jerusalem is also the center longitudinally if we regard not empty space but the density of population."
Apparently modern geographers are puzzled especially by all the African cities on the 1450 map that are missing nowadays: https://popular-archaeology.com/article ... -ethiopia/
Surprisingly I think the ark is still there in the 1450 Fra Mauro map:
- ark1450.png (245.39 KiB) Viewed 7215 times
Update: Wow, there is indeed a bible reference in the 1154 Arabic map. I found a reference to the Gog and Magog story. It is on the top right:
- gogmagog-tabularogeriana.png (154.14 KiB) Viewed 7203 times
Even up to 1436 and 1457 the world maps are depicted in the medieval and antique tradition but Jerusalem is no longer the center of the map:
"The maps mentioned above are ones that began to assimilate the new discoveries into the Ptolemaic framework, thereby abandoning the form and format of the earlier maps. Since the traditional frame no longer held the new discoveries in the 15th century it became a practical impossibility to center the maps on Jerusalem."
Paradise: The place called paradise disappeared in the 15th Century. The last map that shows the paradise is the 1436 Bianco World Map. The Genose Map of 1457 and the Fra Mauro map of 1450 both mention that no one can find it, neither in South-Eastern Africa nor beyond India. Even though the 1450 Fra Mauro map was created partially by the same guy that put the paradise into the Bianco World map, paradise is now omitted.
It also looks like Paradise is what is nowadays Sri Lanka in the Cotton Map of 1000 AD although that's hard to tell because the proportions on the maps don't make any sense nowadays compared to 700 years ago. Some maps don't depict Paradise as a peninsula though, though it seems to be in eastern/southern India.
This supposed 7th Century map is the earliest map that shows the paradise and Gog and Magog area, but no Ark. If anything, it shows tells us that they were already part of the earth before the Caspian Sea got closed towards the Northern Sea.
Paradise Scam: Apparently there was a guy in Central Asia who ran a Paradise Scam, according to the Fra Mauro Map which cites Marco Polo:
In ancient days here ruled a lord known as The Old Man of the Mountain, who through his cunning had created a place full of every delight and pleasure. Here he brought men and fooled them into thinking it was paradise. Out of devotion to this lord, these men then committed great robbery and murder, which was the reason why a Tartar lord seized control of this place
I like the spirit of these Tartar Lords.
Enclosed Area: This seems to be lost somewhere between 1450 and 1504.
Fra Mauro writes about the enclosed people:
"Some write that on the slopes of Mount Caspian, or not far from there, live those peoples who, as one reads, were shut in by Alexander the Macedonian. But this opinion is certainly and clearly mistaken and cannot be upheld in any way because the diversity of the peoples who live around that mountain would certainly have been noticed; it is not possible that such a large number of peoples should remain unknown given that these regions are fairly well known to us: they have been frequented not only by our own peoples but also by the likes of the Georgians, the Mingrelians, the Armenians, the Circassians, the Tartars and many other populations that continually travel along this route. Hence, if those peoples had been enclosed there, I think that others would have had notice of it, and the fact would be known to us. But given that those peoples are at the limit of the earth - something of which I have information that is certain - this explains why all the peoples I listed above know no more about them than we do. Hence I conclude that these peoples are very far from Mount Caspian and are, as I said, at the extreme limit of the world, between the north-east and the north, and they are enclosed by craggy mountains and ocean on three sides. "
The area is still included in the Genoese Map of 1457.
Waldseemueller map:
I can't find Gog and Magog specifically in the 1504 Waldseemüller Map, but one area has an artificial looking mountain area in the same area, so the area still exists, but I don't see a direct reference to the enclosure. It is way bigger than in the Fra Mauro map. Scythia is still there. Basically everything is still there that we know from antiquity. The Hpyerborean Mountains are in modern day Russia. Babylon is there. Tartaria.
Waldseemueller himself writes about Scythia part:
The part of Asia called Asia Minor we have surrounded with a saffron-colored cross joined to a branding iron, which is the symbol of the Sultans of the Turks, who rules Scythia this side of the Imaus, the highest mountains of Asia and Sarmatian Scythia. Asiatic Scythia we have marked by anchors, which are the emblems of the great Tartar Khan.
Roman Empire
Also Waldseemueller still talks about the Roman Empire in 1507, even though technically it had been the 'Holy Roman Empire' since 900 AD according to the official timeline. The mappa mundi maps reference the Roman Empire in 1000-1400 as if it still exists.
Asia getting bigger
There is a discussion about South America as an Asian peninsula and why Columbus thought he reach India traveling to the west here, though it is way over my head, but according to this analysis the 1500 maps show South-America as belonging to the Asian continent?
Comparing the Genoese map of 1457 (high resolution) and the Waldseemueller map of 1504, it seems a new part of Asia just emerged out of nowhere:
- comparison-genoese-waldseemueller.png (144.1 KiB) Viewed 7200 times
The circle shows the Gog and Magog area in Scythia. This is obvious because both maps show the big square walls/mountain walls that show the open air prison where the Gog and Magog people are separated from the rest of the world and similar inscriptions ("Scythia beyond Mount Ymaus"). Waldseemueller himself comments that the region in the north-east called Chatay (China) has to be newly added, because it wasn't known before.
This 1548 map shows America and Asia as one continent. The Ortelius World Map of 1570 doesn't anymore, but the Oceans appear to be small.
Enclosed Area
More about the Gog andd Magog area in the Genose map:
From this people, that is from the tribe of Dan, Antichrist or [...] will be born, who, opening up these mountains by means of nefarious arts [...] will come to the mountain chain that encloses them”
“Up to here live the ten enclosed tribes of the Hebrew race.”
“The iron gates where Alexander enclosed the Tartars”
I also have the feeling this whole enclosing episode was the start of the defamation against Tartars in the European Middle Ages, which is reflected by images like this one. While these "Mongols" (or Tartars) are portrayed as extremely primitive, violent and aggressive, others say this view was the result of Church propaganda against a highly developed and peaceful civilization in Asia that did not accept the Christian Order. Did this civlization later moved eastwards when the earth changes made them allow it? Was this the reason North America was "terra incognita" for such a long time after Columbus? Is this peaceful civilization the reason the North of Russia/Asia/Canada is so uninhabitable today and full of holes that look like craters? I wouldn't be surprised if the wall was actually a defensive wall, not an enclosure, and the maps are twisted in this regard. Well, all of this is just speculation of course.
I can't find that area in today's Russia/Asia, but in the North-Eastern part there is a mountain area that resembles a square area(zoom out), and it is indeed enclosed by oceans on three sides, as Fra Mauro put it. There is another one in the Yugyd Va National Park area, which could also be remains from a wall that went south through Asia. But it's almost impossible to make out anything. Everything from back then seems to be destroyed.
Not only does the Waldseemueller show the remnants of this open air prison enclosed by Alexander The Great, but also the previously mapped coast lines of Asia just disappear and the area of Asia is more than doubled in size. So apparently half of 1500 Asia just appeared out of nowhere in the 16th century but later disappears and gets re-added to America. How does that make sense?
Was America indeed a part of "India" (Asia) when Columbus voyaged to America? Did a split just occure at a later point somewhere between 1500 and 1570? Is the Waldseemueller map mistakenly showing two continents, because some people were just assuming it to be separated and started exploring the same continent from two separate sides?
Gog/Magog = Eastern Tartarians
I found an article that follows the Gog/Magog myths well into the 17th Century. They even appear on a map in 1701.
As it turns out, the Mongols/Khans/Eastern Tartarians bordering China to the north really are Gog and Magog!
The 1569 Mercator world Map cites Marco Polo with "Mongul which we call Magog", on later maps it is simply "Tartari provincia" in the same area. The area can be found in the extreme north-east of Asia on the Mercator Map.
A medieval map simply states ''the Tartars Gog and Magog'.
Marco Polo writes: "It is the place which we call in our country Gogo and Magog, but they call it Ung and Mungul, and in each province
there was one people, in Ung were the people of Gog and in Mungul lived the Tartars."
What about all the Christian hate towards the Eastern Tartarians?
Strangely enough the area of Gog/Magog is slowly going from the middle of Asia towards the North-East over a couple of hundred years. Historians thus think they were simply a myth, put in unknown places, and as the the world got known more and more, they were just put to the most far eastern place and vanished at some point. It may have been a myth in itself, but I think it was Christian propaganda against a real civilization that was not very fond of accepting the Church Rule.
Dating of the ancient maps
It's strange that there is a hotspot of medieval maps between 1100 and 1400, but almost nothing before that. Also note that there are no originals left, only copies. Most copies appear to be from 1300-1600. There is a very long time between the maps of antiquity and early middle ages with no map activity at all. The time span of this void is exactly 1000 years if you exclude three dubious 'antique' maps that suddenly appear in the middle ages as copies.
I'm no longer sure the Bible is really around 2000 years old, it looks more like it includes a couple of events that happened about 1000 years later and I have the suspicion a couple of early world maps between the year 0 and 1000 are not correctly dated.
For example the Tabula Peutingeriana is said to date from the 4th Century, but it only first appeared as a 13th Century copy, and was only published in 1508. But if we take it as a Roman map, where are all the biblical references? Babylon is there, but no tower.
It doesn't make much sense either that all of these medieval mappa mundis quote a guy (Ptolemy) that supposedly lived 1150 years earlier. So no one came up with a better system of mapping the world for more than 1100 years and instead everyone just quote some dead guy from an eternity ago?
Isn't it strange that Ptolemy was the only catographer that drew the Caspian Sea in the style of the Middle Age Maps? Everyone else during that time showed the Caspian Sea connected to the Scythian/Northern Ocean. He diverges from that:
I am pretty sure this is proof that Ptolemy was an early medieval Catographer. There's also the problem that there are hundreds of people named Ptolemy back then.
I mean, the oldest surviving Ptolemaic world map from the year 150 was "redrawn" by monks at Constantinople under Maximus Planudes in 1300, and then again reconstituted again in the 15h Century. Really? Please try harder, monks! The upheavals between 1500 and 1700 in Africa, Europe and Russia have destroyed most of the original ancient knowledge in my view. We are collecting broken fragments.
Why should they have the ark at Mount Ararat in 1450 when all of this supposedely happened 2000 or 2500 years earlier? What about this strange Gog and Magog stuff? The paradise that disappeared around 1436. No, I think the events that led to the Bible happened between 1000 and 2000 years ago and then 1000 years ago they had finished collected all the important stuff in writings. Then the church was created between 1000 and 1300 and started to push a censored version of this knowledge. They started to became more powerful around 1400, overthrew the Roman Empire from within, and started to prosecute the people that didn't want to believe in the official bible in Europe and Russia. At the same time they voyaged to the new continents and spread their version of history elswere. Eveything after terrible catastrophes destroyed the foundation of the older world. This culminated in the events of 1500-1650 with the Witch Hunts, prosecution of so-called Heretics, etc.
Imagine how much happens within a mere 100 years. Think about 1900 and think about now. Then look back and think how much can happen between ca AD 900/1000 (end of bible stuff) and 1400 (late mappa mundi maps). 300-400 years are enough to make the ark and the paradise disappear, and also all memories. 1400 years on the other hand are too much for people to still care.
This is the Sawley Mappa Mundi from 1190. It has the tower of Babel, paradise, open air prison, sea monsters, etc. The earlierst one is the Cotton map from 995-1050. It looks to me as if only around 1000 AD people started mapping the biblical world. I don't necessarily think the flood happened somewhere shortly before this, but how long can a boat rest on a mountain?
links
- http://cartographic-images.net / http://www.myoldmaps.com
- http://ancientworldmaps.blogspot.com/
To sum everthing up from the above post regarding the earth changes, it looks to me like:
- After the (artificial?) design of the earth, the fresh version looked something like this, and on each continent different races were placed, only that it is obvious when looking at the later maps that every continent had exactly the same size. When you put this original design into the modell of an earth globe you get three identical parts and two small oceans at the poles. The picture reminds me of a flower with three leaves, and this metaphor has been used in the middle ages. The growth pattern of the earth flower seems a bit chaotic though
The people back then chose to view everything from the south pole, because that's apparently where the modern day civilization was born. Since we are living in a closed system, our ancestors/creators must have come out of the earth.
- Then between -600 (?) and 1000 (?) it underwent a couple of changes, which are impossible to date, but they created the Med Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, etc.:
What is the Read Sea today, was the Nile originally (?).
I think the oldest reliably dated map is the Cotton Map of ca 1000 AD, the Caspian Sea is still at the top North, and open. In the Ebstorf Map (1235), the Caspian Sea is also still open, and Jerusalem at the center.
It seems the Christian Monks took a while to accept the new world., because this is no longer the case in 1154 (Tabula Rogeriana), the Caspian Sea is now more in the middle of Asia. Either they were in denial mode, or it shows the datings are not really reliable.
The place of modern day Caspian Sea is strange, it basically went from top north to middle of the earth. How can that happen??
By most of the following maps until 1459 (Fra Mauro Map) it is confirmed that the Caspian Sea is no longer open to the Ocean, and Jerusalem is also no longer at the south pole.
And that's shortly before the biggest change yet that creates America and the modern day Oceans between 1460 and 1500. This destroys the biblical world, but a few monsters are still there. South America is still part of Asia for a couple of decades in the 16th Century. The arctis and antarctis didn't exist yet. Northern Asia is mostly unexplored for a couple of decades until 1600, strangely. Just like the Interior of Africa, and America. Hard to tell if they just couldn't get there in time or it was depopulated. Africa is still a bit empty in 1570, still more life signs like seas and lakes than today.
The modern day antarctis and arctis appear after the split of South America in the 16th Century, but they aren't full of ice. The South pole is terra australis - unknown land, but the area is mapped without the ice.
The Amazonian tribes of antiquity are in Northern Asia during the Middle Ages, then they are in South America suddenly after 1500, and the Amazon river is named after them.
Then there's another change which creates Australia between 1630 and 1680, right? Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean.
dreamtime wrote:
To sum everthing up from the above post regarding the earth changes, it looks to me like:- After the (artificial?) design of the earth, the fresh version looked something like this, and on each continent different races were placed, only that it is obvious when looking at the later maps that every continent had exactly the same size. When you put this original design into the modell of an earth globe you get three identical parts and two small oceans at the poles. The picture reminds me of a flower with three leaves, and this metaphor has been used in the middle ages. The growth pattern of the earth flower seems a bit chaotic though
The people back then chose to view everything from the south pole, because that's apparently where the modern day civilization was born. Since we are living in a closed system, our ancestors/creators must have come out of the earth.
- Then between -600 (?) and 1000 (?) it underwent a couple of changes, which are impossible to date, but they created the Med Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, etc.:
- hecataeus.png (134.04 KiB) Viewed 7085 times
What is the Read Sea today, was the Nile originally (?).
I think the oldest reliably dated map is the Cotton Map of ca 1000 AD, the Caspian Sea is still at the top North, and open. In the Ebstorf Map (1235), the Caspian Sea is also still open, and Jerusalem at the center.
It seems the Christian Monks took a while to accept the new world., because this is no longer the case in 1154 (Tabula Rogeriana), the Caspian Sea is now more in the middle of Asia. Either they were in denial mode, or it shows the datings are not really reliable.
The place of modern day Caspian Sea is strange, it basically went from top north to middle of the earth. How can that happen??
By most of the following maps until 1459 (Fra Mauro Map) it is confirmed that the Caspian Sea is no longer open to the Ocean, and Jerusalem is also no longer at the south pole.
And that's shortly before the biggest change yet that creates America and the modern day Oceans between 1460 and 1500. This destroys the biblical world, but a few monsters are still there. South America is still part of Asia for a couple of decades in the 16th Century. The arctis and antarctis didn't exist yet. Northern Asia is mostly unexplored for a couple of decades until 1600, strangely. Just like the Interior of Africa, and America. Hard to tell if they just couldn't get there in time or it was depopulated. Africa is still a bit empty in 1570, still more life signs like seas and lakes than today.
The modern day antarctis and arctis appear after the split of South America in the 16th Century, but they aren't full of ice. The South pole is terra australis - unknown land, but the area is mapped without the ice.
The Amazonian tribes of antiquity are in Northern Asia during the Middle Ages, then they are in South America suddenly after 1500, and the Amazon river is named after them.
Then there's another change which creates Australia between 1630 and 1680, right? Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean.
- After the (artificial?) design of the earth, the fresh version looked something like this, and on each continent different races were placed, only that it is obvious when looking at the later maps that every continent had exactly the same size. When you put this original design into the modell of an earth globe you get three identical parts and two small oceans at the poles. The picture reminds me of a flower with three leaves, and this metaphor has been used in the middle ages. The growth pattern of the earth flower seems a bit chaotic though
The people back then chose to view everything from the south pole, because that's apparently where the modern day civilization was born. Since we are living in a closed system, our ancestors/creators must have come out of the earth.
- Then between -600 (?) and 1000 (?) it underwent a couple of changes, which are impossible to date, but they created the Med Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Black Sea, etc.:
What is the Read Sea today, was the Nile originally (?).
I think the oldest reliably dated map is the Cotton Map of ca 1000 AD, the Caspian Sea is still at the top North, and open. In the Ebstorf Map (1235), the Caspian Sea is also still open, and Jerusalem at the center.
It seems the Christian Monks took a while to accept the new world., because this is no longer the case in 1154 (Tabula Rogeriana), the Caspian Sea is now more in the middle of Asia. Either they were in denial mode, or it shows the datings are not really reliable.
The place of modern day Caspian Sea is strange, it basically went from top north to middle of the earth. How can that happen??
By most of the following maps until 1459 (Fra Mauro Map) it is confirmed that the Caspian Sea is no longer open to the Ocean, and Jerusalem is also no longer at the south pole.
And that's shortly before the biggest change yet that creates America and the modern day Oceans between 1460 and 1500. This destroys the biblical world, but a few monsters are still there. South America is still part of Asia for a couple of decades in the 16th Century. The arctis and antarctis didn't exist yet. Northern Asia is mostly unexplored for a couple of decades until 1600, strangely. Just like the Interior of Africa, and America. Hard to tell if they just couldn't get there in time or it was depopulated. Africa is still a bit empty in 1570, still more life signs like seas and lakes than today.
The modern day antarctis and arctis appear after the split of South America in the 16th Century, but they aren't full of ice. The South pole is terra australis - unknown land, but the area is mapped without the ice.
The Amazonian tribes of antiquity are in Northern Asia during the Middle Ages, then they are in South America suddenly after 1500, and the Amazon river is named after them.
Then there's another change which creates Australia between 1630 and 1680, right? Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean.
"Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean." Thats one of my questions, also, where did most of the tribes of South America came from? if both Americas came out of the ocean. According to most of the maps that WH posted, it seems that both Argentinian and Chilean Patagonia came out of a big chunk of land of Antartica, if not whole South America.
Also, what is in Antartica? it seems that most of the World superpowers want a piece of that land. Is there a chance that the exit of this concave world is placed in there?
Freezetime26 wrote:Then there's another change which creates Australia between 1630 and 1680, right? Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean.
"Where did the people that inhabited North America originally come from? It looks like North America just emerged out of the Ocean." Thats one of my questions, also, where did most of the tribes of South America came from? if both Americas came out of the ocean. According to most of the maps that WH posted, it seems that both Argentinian and Chilean Patagonia came out of a big chunk of land of Antartica, if not whole South America.
Also, what is in Antartica? it seems that most of the World superpowers want a piece of that land. Is there a chance that the exit of this concave world is placed in there?[/quote]
Yeah. That's a tough one. One of the maps dreamtime showed it looks like a lot of the Americas where a part of Asia/Antarctica at one time. On one of the Ptolemy maps, it looks like South America was a part of Africa.
Definitely tricky. I have seen a couple of maps from the early 1500s to show North America joined to Asia in a significant way. If I had to guess right now, I'd say originally (Ptolemy) North America was part of Asia and South America was part of Africa, both SA/Africa were joined to Antarctica. Then, South America broke off from Africa and joined Asia/North America. And then after that, the Pacific opened up seperating the Americas from Asia.
Does that make sense? Look, it's very early days with that theory lol. But I thought I'd put it out there.
I'll keep on concentrating on maps post-1550 for the moment. Dreamtime and cepho have contributed enormously to historical texts which I have yet to read through properly.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
In general regard to the earth changes I have to say it is very frustrating to realize I have even more questions every time I think I've found an answer. There's definitely a lack of people researching this, just as with concave earth.
I'm reading The Travels of Marco Polo right now.
It's the most famous historical travel book, and it's from 1300 I think. It's excellent to get a grip on what was going on inside the minds of medieval people. Just as an example, it comes across that it was completely normal for Marco Polo to be around humans who had the face of dogs. He (and others probably) just accepted this reality, because after all people interacted with exactly that reality. Also he found people in India who still reached the age of 200.
A German scientist form the University of Tuebingen ran a deep analysis comparing all facts presented in the book with everything else known from other sources, and he found it to be mostly true, so I guess this settles it. There are other things that can't be confirmed, but well that's because earth changed a lot.
So here we have a document that is basically a mostly true account of 1300 India, China and Asia/Tartary.
The leader of the 1300 Mongol/Tartary Empire Kublai Khan definitely comes across as very aggressive, from Marco Polo's account. He's basically conquering everything, all the time.
It's basically a big empire that is defined by bureocracy, military presence, fear, obligation to pay taxes and people being forced to use a unified monetary system (paper money), but also cultural riches and protection.
My first impression of this 1300 world is that average people are enourmously busy trading and (if you aren't a slave) often enjoying life on a higher level of material wealth and human interaction than we do today, especially in the cities of the Great Khan, who installed something similar to a modern state apparatus.
Very good infrastructure, and genius city planning and architecture. Life is extremely diverse, depending on where you are in that world. No place is like the other. It certainly looks like the connection to the roots of religion had already been lost and replaced with 'ignorant' rituals.
Lots of kingdoms without military that just wanted to do their stuff and not harm anyone, and lots of aggressive kingdoms focusing on war. I guess the former ones were mostly annihilated sadly and their history buried with them. Marco Polo gives one concrete example of a king that had established a very peaceful and advanced kingdom, but due to their inexperience with war they quickly lost to the Khan.
I'm reading The Travels of Marco Polo right now.
It's the most famous historical travel book, and it's from 1300 I think. It's excellent to get a grip on what was going on inside the minds of medieval people. Just as an example, it comes across that it was completely normal for Marco Polo to be around humans who had the face of dogs. He (and others probably) just accepted this reality, because after all people interacted with exactly that reality. Also he found people in India who still reached the age of 200.
A German scientist form the University of Tuebingen ran a deep analysis comparing all facts presented in the book with everything else known from other sources, and he found it to be mostly true, so I guess this settles it. There are other things that can't be confirmed, but well that's because earth changed a lot.
So here we have a document that is basically a mostly true account of 1300 India, China and Asia/Tartary.
The leader of the 1300 Mongol/Tartary Empire Kublai Khan definitely comes across as very aggressive, from Marco Polo's account. He's basically conquering everything, all the time.
It's basically a big empire that is defined by bureocracy, military presence, fear, obligation to pay taxes and people being forced to use a unified monetary system (paper money), but also cultural riches and protection.
My first impression of this 1300 world is that average people are enourmously busy trading and (if you aren't a slave) often enjoying life on a higher level of material wealth and human interaction than we do today, especially in the cities of the Great Khan, who installed something similar to a modern state apparatus.
Very good infrastructure, and genius city planning and architecture. Life is extremely diverse, depending on where you are in that world. No place is like the other. It certainly looks like the connection to the roots of religion had already been lost and replaced with 'ignorant' rituals.
Lots of kingdoms without military that just wanted to do their stuff and not harm anyone, and lots of aggressive kingdoms focusing on war. I guess the former ones were mostly annihilated sadly and their history buried with them. Marco Polo gives one concrete example of a king that had established a very peaceful and advanced kingdom, but due to their inexperience with war they quickly lost to the Khan.
dreamtime wrote:The leader of the 1300 Mongol/Tartary Empire Kublai Khan definitely comes across as very aggressive, from Marco Polo's account. He's basically conquering everything, all the time.
Yeah, books like that are real eye openers and should be taken as true at least from the perspective of the author.
Didn't trade happen over land in those days along the Silk Road? This in itself is a little odd if this was the main trade route as surely it would be easier and cheaper to send cargo by boat than land? A boat could carry more goods quicker than a horse and cart I think.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Tartars were the real driving force behind aggressive Islam with the Turks as the Western European frontline of the Tartars expanding into Europe (aka the Crusades etc.)
interesting: http://www.sms-tsunami-warning.com/page ... tugal-1755
Megaquake near Portugal in 1755.
I am looking at this map again in detail: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... =0&trs=95#
Cited on Page 4 of this thread.
What is that mysterious island between Asia and America?
There's a book that writes about a couple of cities in Africa that have been wiped from history: https://archive.org/details/historyanddescr00leogoog. Haven't looked into it.
Are there any similar high quality maps from that time? The details in Africa are astounding. Maybe it would be good to collect such maps in a chronological list.
Wild Heretic wrote:Yeah. That's a tough one. One of the maps dreamtime showed it looks like a lot of the Americas where a part of Asia/Antarctica at one time. On one of the Ptolemy maps, it looks like South America was a part of Africa.
Megaquake near Portugal in 1755.
I am looking at this map again in detail: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... =0&trs=95#
Cited on Page 4 of this thread.
What is that mysterious island between Asia and America?
There's a book that writes about a couple of cities in Africa that have been wiped from history: https://archive.org/details/historyanddescr00leogoog. Haven't looked into it.
Are there any similar high quality maps from that time? The details in Africa are astounding. Maybe it would be good to collect such maps in a chronological list.
When you go through the early maps on wikipedia, it seems there a couple of decades after 1470 where America suddenly had emerged out of the ocean as a new part of Asia (look at Martellus and Pietro Coppo), and then somewhat after 1520 it starts to be a seperate continent.
Yes, the one Ptolemy map where Africa is bigger as usual. hmm...
Anyway, it is very strange to me that all the early maps show a world without any American continent, and then it simply appear out of nowhere added to Asia.
But America had to be somewhere before, because it is part of the original "Pangea" super continent when there were no oceans. The rich history of the continent makes it very unlikely to me it just came out of the ocean 500 years ago. But I can't understand what happened from all of the maps known to us. Looking at the map from my previous post it is almost impossible people did not know about that big american continent that was basically just in front of their eyes in East Asia.
Maybe some part of the problem is all the different systems of maps and projections used over time.
The mercator projection is a big problem because it has distorted how modern people look at the world: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-bri ... world-map/
Here's another projection that makes more sense: https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 6d1ff9e682
It's the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall%E2%8 ... projection
As depicted in this Show "The West Wing": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY
dreamtime wrote:
But America had to be somewhere before, because it is part of the original "Pangea" super continent when there were no oceans. The rich history of the continent makes it very unlikely to me it just came out of the ocean 500 years ago. But I can't understand what happened from all of the maps known to us. Looking at the map from my previous post it is almost impossible people did not know about that big american continent that was basically just in front of their eyes in East Asia.
I'm guessing that some or most of north America was a part of Asia and classed as such in the old maps, i.e. it was a part of Tartary. One map mentions tents in North America in the 1500s the same as those of Tartary plus white figures drawn on as Indians.
Perhaps some of it came out of the narrow Atlantic ocean as the Atlantic Ocean expanded and the first narrow part of the Pacific was created. So new land was created in the middle of the Atlantic expanding it, and part of North America came out of the west side of it also.
I'm just guessing at the moment as I haven't looked into this in any detail.
variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: 18px; margin: 10px 0px 0px; overflow: hidden; padding: 10px 0px 0px; vertical-align: baseline; width: 831.2px;"> "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
by Wild Heretic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:35 pm
That's not a problem dreamtime. You can overcome this by either referring the modern map as the same projection as Mercator:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... ion_SW.JPG
Or, which I much prefer, is taking the lat/long coordinates from both maps you are comparing to get an idea as to what and where you are looking at. You have to be careful that 0 degrees longitude is only Greenwich, London in maps from 1800AD onwards and British maps from 1700AD onwards. The others usually use the Azores as their starting point (but not always).
Megaquake near Portugal in 1755.
I am looking at this map again in detail: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... =0&trs=95#
Cited on Page 4 of this thread.
There's a book that writes about a couple of cities in Africa that have been wiped from history: https://archive.org/details/historyanddescr00leogoog. Haven't looked into it.
Are there any similar high quality maps from that time? The details in Africa are astounding. Maybe it would be good to collect such maps in a chronological list.
Dreamtime, have no fear, I've been cataloguing all these maps over the last few months. Well, I didn't do that for Africa, although I collected a lot of them in a folder on my laptop.
I have two excel files of about 150 to 200 maps from circa 1550 to 1800 on South America/Antarctica and Russia/North America/Japan/Bering Strait.
I don't think I'll need an African one. My plan is put these areas together in regions and time periods with technical analysis compared to google maps and referencing historical texts that I have found with current archeology. The PDFs will probably look something like this:
1. North America/Russia and Australia
2. China/Japan and Tartary
3. South America/Antarctica
4. Africa
5. Rome
6. Ireland and West coast of Scotland
North America is first because there are still substantial differences as late as 1790AD. It's very hard to dismiss Captains Cook and Bering and the official maps of their voyages. This makes sense to me as the Pacific seems to be the last ocean created and continued to change (and expand a little) right up to this time.
I have nearly finished this datasheet. I think I'll prob go up to 1800AD or whenever I actually get a modern-looking map.
The African travellers book from the early 1500s is a classic. I have to data mine it properly. I read a lot of it. He hardly ever mentions ruins. I think he mentions ruins like 3 or 4 times. All the other "ruin" words come from the modern literature analyst below the text who keeps saying things like "this city is now in ruins" etc. or he isn't exactly sure where this city is lol.
The beauty of that link is that you can word search. He uses "temple" a lot rather than "church" for example. I don't think I ever saw the word "mosque".
There are loads of detailed maps on Africa even better than that 1587 Venetian one.
Africa fascinates me, because of the obvious contrast between past and modern. It's also a good example to show to others.
Can't wait to see it. I hope youve got a couple of backups
Will you publish your work alongside the concave earth stuff on your website?
I am thinking in similar directions. Some parts of America appear to be "stretched out". I makes sense that landmasses were affected like that when the earth expanded, as it's not exactly like the land is just floating around. So they would not only break apart, but also get stretched out, so the earth expansion widens the landmasses.
When you look at the Western Part of China, the whole of Middle East, and the Western part of America, it certainly looks like stretchmarks, similar to what you see in the oceans. This seems to be connected to barren lands and deserts with not much vegetation. Just what you expect from deeper parts of the earth that gets exposed due to earth expansion.
This part of Asia looks like it had been ripped open, and it directly lines up with the stretchmarks of the ocean to the south. You can follow the line from inner Asia over the ocean down to Australia.
It also looks like Lake Baikal to the north of this barren basin in inner Asia was created when the earth widened, as well as Lake Balkhash to the west.
While both have a dubious ancient history, Lake Baikal was first officially discovered in 1643, and the first recorded mention of Lake Balkhash is in 1644!
They are not to be found on older maps. Instead, the region was full of vegetation, small lakes, rivers and cities until the 17th century.
As you wrote earlier @WH, it makes definitely sense that the Himalayas are relatively recent and there is no mention of them in ancient history. They aren't on the maps either. In fact, the whole of modern Tibet is not older than 400 years. It is breathtaking to re-think the history of our planet according to the maps. There is a reason history is filled with myths, these catastrophic events cut people off of their ancestors to a large extent.
The following maps gives a good idea what part of Asia/America was new/undiscovered, which is most of North America/Canada: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... mi=0&trs=1
Before that North America was basically a part of Tartaria, and South America was called India: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... i=1&trs=12
If I am not mistaken, only after around 1500 tents started to appear in Northern Tartaria and North America, before that the regions belonged to the Tartarian kingdoms, so there's the possibility those got weakened by the earth changes, but I won't discard the possibility that they were targeted by other means afterwards (enemies of the Catholic Church), so those kingdoms may have been around up to the 18th century.
Can't wait to see it. I hope youve got a couple of backups
Will you publish your work alongside the concave earth stuff on your website?
I am thinking in similar directions. Some parts of America appear to be "stretched out". I makes sense that landmasses were affected like that when the earth expanded, as it's not exactly like the land is just floating around. So they would not only break apart, but also get stretched out, so the earth expansion widens the landmasses.
When you look at the Western Part of China, the whole of Middle East, and the Western part of America, it certainly looks like stretchmarks, similar to what you see in the oceans. This seems to be connected to barren lands and deserts with not much vegetation. Just what you expect from deeper parts of the earth that gets exposed due to earth expansion.
- asia.png (86.49 KiB) Viewed 6667 times
This part of Asia looks like it had been ripped open, and it directly lines up with the stretchmarks of the ocean to the south. You can follow the line from inner Asia over the ocean down to Australia.
It also looks like Lake Baikal to the north of this barren basin in inner Asia was created when the earth widened, as well as Lake Balkhash to the west.
While both have a dubious ancient history, Lake Baikal was first officially discovered in 1643, and the first recorded mention of Lake Balkhash is in 1644!
They are not to be found on older maps. Instead, the region was full of vegetation, small lakes, rivers and cities until the 17th century.
As you wrote earlier @WH, it makes definitely sense that the Himalayas are relatively recent and there is no mention of them in ancient history. They aren't on the maps either. In fact, the whole of modern Tibet is not older than 400 years. It is breathtaking to re-think the history of our planet according to the maps. There is a reason history is filled with myths, these catastrophic events cut people off of their ancestors to a large extent.
The following maps gives a good idea what part of Asia/America was new/undiscovered, which is most of North America/Canada: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... mi=0&trs=1
Before that North America was basically a part of Tartaria, and South America was called India: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servle ... i=1&trs=12
If I am not mistaken, only after around 1500 tents started to appear in Northern Tartaria and North America, before that the regions belonged to the Tartarian kingdoms, so there's the possibility those got weakened by the earth changes, but I won't discard the possibility that they were targeted by other means afterwards (enemies of the Catholic Church), so those kingdoms may have been around up to the 18th century.
Last edited by dreamtime on Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 10 times in total.
The Maunder Minimum corresponds well with the historical world maps in regard to the creation of the ice poles, the global cooling as well as the global catastrophe in 1690 theorized in other parts of this thread.
In 1816, exactly at the lowest point of the Dalton Minimum there was the "Year Without a Summer" with global famines.
We are headed towards a new grand minimum starting in the year 2030: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 092955.htm
Something big happened in 1600:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_f ... ite_note-1
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaynaputina
1/3 of Russian people killed by a single volcano in Peru? There's pobably more to it.
Was this the beginning of the global cooling? dreamtime wrote:Africa fascinates me, because of the obvious contrast between past and modern. It's also a good example to show to others.
Yeah Ethiopia and below is depicted as white person's land. Central and West Africa is black (negro) person's territory. People either lived in tents or citadels at that time it seems.
I have one back up.
Some of it.
Brilliant finds, especially on the second map. You are dead right. Comparing that map to google maps, South America belonged to Asia and was called India (as were other places I noticed in that region on other maps. I think India was a loose name meaning far land or something like that). North/central America looks to be the Cathay of old.
An absolutely incredible map on so many levels. At least I have half a chance at understanding old German if the text is legible at all. That map is most worthy of intricate study at some time.
Incredible isn't it that the entire Pacific Ocean and the ring of fire are less than 600 years old! Imagine even going from that map to the Mercator one in the 1500s. What a transition! What a mess!
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
dreamtime wrote:The Maunder Minimum corresponds well with the historical world maps in regard to the creation of the ice poles, the global cooling as well as the global catastrophe in 1690 theorized in other parts of this thread.
In 1816, exactly at the lowest point of the Dalton Minimum there was the "Year Without a Summer" with global famines.
We are headed towards a new grand minimum starting in the year 2030: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 092955.htm
Something big happened in 1600:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_f ... ite_note-1
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaynaputina
1/3 of Russian people killed by a single volcano in Peru? There's pobably more to it.
Was this the beginning of the global cooling?
Yes, I've pointed this out on the thread earlier. There were even bigger earth changes before the 1600s, but sunspots were only first recorded then so who knows how the sun acted before 1600. Ice core samples are bunk as the old maps don't show ice (but populated areas) in the regions where they take these samples today (Antarctica; although some Greenland samples may be ok for a short period before 1600AD judging by the maps).
Yeah the 1600 eruption in Peru (or thereabouts) has been linked to the northern European famine of the same time; however, I read an excellent blog article on this topic. The blogger had researched this thoroughly and showed that although there seems to be a link, the eruption can't be the single or actual cause of the famine events in Scandinavia and Russia at the time. He had no idea as to what really caused all of this but suggested another massive eruption in northern Europe missing from the historical record.
http://www.volcanocafe.org/the-winter-of-huaynaputina/
You can't go far wrong if you invert everything the mainstream tells us. When they say its global warming, you can bet your house it will be global cooling. Invert everything they say and you are golden without having to research anything yourself. A handy and quick barometer to have, if you don't have the time to research something right.
Thank you NWO. You are the lazy man's barometer of truth for the intelligent person.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Interesting. I've fast forwarded my map search as I was getting impatient. The earliest map to show the modern Alaskan coastline I found on raremaps was one from the 1840s showing recent discoveries. Not sure if I can pinpoint an exact date here.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
Just found this explanation as to why the old medieval maps from Antarctica are complete fantasy from antiquity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_Australis
I think it's a good overview how the mainstream looks at these maps and interprets them in a more or less coherent way to fit into their narrative.
Let me just say the antique connection they want to draw in the wikipedia article is not very convincing. I think I saw most of the very old maps and I haven't seen Antarctica or anything that resembles it. Showing this map as proof is not convincing. (Australis just means 'southern', and would be expected on the, well, south pole.)
What's with this strange idea to connect "absurd" medival theories to the old antiquity? It's either medieval or from antiquity. This kind of logic is everywhere. I have to say it seems more and more like historians see the complete middle ages as a sudden collective delusion, a chaotic dream of ancient antiquity.
I also think the 'antique authors' all lived around the second millinium (around 1000 AD +-200). That's why map makers reference Ptolemeus even at the beginning of modernity. They were put back 1000 years into the past together with the Western Roman Empire.
As a more general thought: In the light of reversing population growth and natural growth patterns I see only two options, either humanity was invented a thousand years ago (unlikely, given it's obsession with obscure historic myths and jumpstart from nothing) or our civilization was almost wiped out at that time. So the deluge happened just a thousand years ago? To me this is the only conclusion I see so far. Even though it's hard to get my head around it.
Did we do this to ourselves with technology? Like "Hey, let's see what this interesting source of infinite energy ca... -- oops we destroyed the glass layer"
dreamtime wrote:Just found this explanation as to why the old medieval maps from Antarctica are complete fantasy from antiquity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_AustralisI think it's a good overview how the mainstream looks at these maps and interprets them in a more or less coherent way to fit into their narrative.
Let me just say the antique connection they want to draw in the wikipedia article is not very convincing. I think I saw most of the very old maps and I haven't seen Antarctica or anything that resembles it. Showing this map as proof is not convincing. (Australis just means 'southern', and would be expected on the, well, south pole.)
What's with this strange idea to connect "absurd" medival theories to the old antiquity? It's either medieval or from antiquity. This kind of logic is everywhere. I have to say it seems more and more like historians see the complete middle ages as a sudden collective delusion, a chaotic dream of ancient antiquity.
I also think the 'antique authors' all lived around the second millinium (around 1000 AD +-200). That's why map makers reference Ptolemeus even at the beginning of modernity. They were put back 1000 years into the past together with the Western Roman Empire.
As a more general thought: In the light of reversing population growth and natural growth patterns I see only two options, either humanity was invented a thousand years ago (unlikely, given it's obsession with obscure historic myths and jumpstart from nothing) or our civilization was almost wiped out at that time. So the deluge happened just a thousand years ago? To me this is the only conclusion I see so far. Even though it's hard to get my head around it.
Did we do this to ourselves with technology? Like "Hey, let's see what this interesting source of infinite energy ca... -- oops we destroyed the glass layer"
I think it's a good overview how the mainstream looks at these maps and interprets them in a more or less coherent way to fit into their narrative.
Let me just say the antique connection they want to draw in the wikipedia article is not very convincing. I think I saw most of the very old maps and I haven't seen Antarctica or anything that resembles it. Showing this map as proof is not convincing. (Australis just means 'southern', and would be expected on the, well, south pole.)
What's with this strange idea to connect "absurd" medival theories to the old antiquity? It's either medieval or from antiquity. This kind of logic is everywhere. I have to say it seems more and more like historians see the complete middle ages as a sudden collective delusion, a chaotic dream of ancient antiquity.
I also think the 'antique authors' all lived around the second millinium (around 1000 AD +-200). That's why map makers reference Ptolemeus even at the beginning of modernity. They were put back 1000 years into the past together with the Western Roman Empire.
As a more general thought: In the light of reversing population growth and natural growth patterns I see only two options, either humanity was invented a thousand years ago (unlikely, given it's obsession with obscure historic myths and jumpstart from nothing) or our civilization was almost wiped out at that time. So the deluge happened just a thousand years ago? To me this is the only conclusion I see so far. Even though it's hard to get my head around it.
Did we do this to ourselves with technology? Like "Hey, let's see what this interesting source of infinite energy ca... -- oops we destroyed the glass layer"
Amazingly, I pretty much agree on everything there Dreamtime. I was thinking about the population reversal the other day and I know a historian or two who thinks that half the population of China was wiped in the 1600s and the mainstream estimate a third of the world pop was wiped during the same period.
However, let's say half the population was killed off worldwide. Ok. Now, the same maths site (Wolfram) says that at the current 1.1% growth rate, the world pop doubles every 64 years I think it was. So at 2% growth, this will be around 40 years. This is nothing really. We can just add say half a century to the 1136 years figure. Let's say half the world's population died every century from 1000AD to 1700AD due to earth expansion, climate change, famine and wars etc. (This is an extreme figure). We are only adding 350 years to the 1136 calculation.
This means that the original "birth of humanity" still stands at around 1100 to 1500 years ago. We can't really get around it. Therefore I put a literal "restart" and new beginning at around this time. Also, the 1136 figure is going back to one man! Clearly looking at the different races and locations this is too extreme. Year zero may be starting at 10,000 people altogether say (maybe).
Was the deluge then? Maybe. I know the Aztec text you showed and the Bible point to around 4500 years ago I think, so maybe this was another restart. I am unsure. Or they could all be referring to the near extinction deluge at 1000 years ago.
It is possible that high tech broke the earth I suppose. Maybe those pyramids all over the world had something to do with it. Too much energy collection broke the earth and glass open? Or maybe it was the creator who thought enough is enough with the people messing with the genome creating Griffins, sphinxes and centaurs and such like, playing God. Or the giants eating everything they could see. It looks like according to the bible there was a committee disagreement as to how the earth should be run and for what purpose, hence the falllen angels and the like, which is still ongoing. Fallen angels said yes man should be like God, and God said no way, that's not why I created them... or something to that effect.
All speculation though for me at present.
Whenever I see the Wiseup petrified technology I always think Flash Gordon, Planet of the Apes, and He-man Masters of the Universe cartoon. Reminds me of the late Lloyd Pye as well when he says that humans aren't made for current earth conditions (hence his speculation that we are really ET created). It had never occurred to me until now that these conditions we enjoy to today are only 200 to possibly 300 years old. And that in 1300AD conditions were very different. So maybe pre-800/900 AD earth conditions were very suitable to humans? Ideal even. Or the most ideal condition was the garden of Eden at the north pole.
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